Former French PM condemns Israel's war on Gaza - Dominique de Villepin & Fatima Bhutto | Studio B

It is the indifference, it is the inhumanity that is fueling violence. The world should start recomposing the new world order, starting with Palestine, which is the strongest symbol of justice.

Since

his historic speech at the UN Security Council, declaring France's opposition to the US invasion of Iraq, former French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has been an

outspoken critic of Western military interventions

around

the

world.

My

name is Fatima Bouteau, and in this special interview for Studio B, I'll be talking to Dominique de Villepin about the war on Gaza and why he believes the international community has failed to act.

Thank

you, Dominique de Villepin.

You

are the most high-profile Western politician, a former foreign minister and prime minister of France, to have spoken out on the war on Gaza, which you called the greatest historical scandal. Very simply, what compelled you to add your voice to this issue?

Well,

there are many personal reasons. I was born in Morocco. My family lived in Algeria. I went through decolonization. I was raised in South America, lived in the U.S., in India,

and

traveled extensively around the world.

And I

really could not stand

looking

at

such

a suffering, such a waste

in

the Middle East.

during

the 7th of October,

a

tragedy for Israel,

and

every day since,

for

Gaza, now Lebanon,

and

who knows elsewhere.

And

I keep asking myself,

where

is it going to end?

And

it is true that at first you can convince yourself

that

Israel had many reasons

to

restore deterrence,

many

reasons to secure its own population. We can understand that.

But

why

destroying the

whole Gaza?

Why

killing children, women? Why this determination

to

destroy schools, universities,

even

cemeteries?

The

whole identity

of

the Palestinian people.

And

that's where you understand that you are in front of an escalation that nobody does control. And I cannot accept the fact

that

the world leadership, neither in the Arab world, neither in Europe, neither in the U.S. or elsewhere,

can

stand still

and

not do anything. We know that the war and terror should not be fought through only force. We need political objective. We need hope at the end of the day.

And

there is no hope

until

today.

We

know that the destruction has been total. According to the UN, Israel has killed more five to nine-year-olds than any other age group in Gaza.

It's

been an attack on doctors, on journalists. What do you think Israel's military and political objectives are in this case?

I

think the common justification of Israel is

both security

and retaliation towards a terrorist movement, which is Hamas.

I

think

anybody

looking at what's going on in Gaza sees a huge disproportion between the retaliation

and

the threat. Even

the

former Minister of Defense, Yoav Galant, says

that

Israel has reached

its

objectives in Gaza.

So

why the war is continuing?

Is

it because Benjamin Netanyahu wants to make a gift to Donald Trump as a new president and wait a couple of months more

and

not give this gift to Joe Biden?

Is

it because there is some kind of a hidden agenda

pursuing the

destruction of Gaza

and

the possible colonization of Gaza or the displacement of the population? And that's why I want to remind every leader of the world, international law is for everybody.

Even

for the most developed country, there should not be double standards. We should not forget

that

at the core source of all this violence,

there

is something that happened in this region, which is the whole population of Palestine having to leave their homes.

I

remember my friend Mahmoud Dawish, the poet,

telling

me his feeling

when

he has and his family

to

leave everything, 700,000 people leaving their homes

with

no possibility of going back. This feeling, the Nakba, the catastrophe, is very much in the mind of the Palestinians as much as

for

the Israelis, the Shoah, the pogroms of the end of the 19th century, is still very present. These trauma are here.

But

this injustice

is

today on our shoulders.

There

will be no peace. There will be no security in this region

until

we can erase this injustice and recognize a Palestinian state.

And

this, everybody has to understand it. Donald Trump, as much as the European leaders, as much as the Arab leaders, some people think that in the hidden agenda of some of these countries, they are happy to see the liquidation of terrorist organization. Yes, but nobody would be able

to

liquidate, to erase

the

Palestinian requirement for justice.

In your speech at the United Nations Security Council in 2003 against the Iraq war, you warned then that the credibility of the West was at stake. Is Prime Minister Netanyahu picking up where the U.S. left off after 9-11?

I

think that Benjamin Netanyahu

is

very much using geopolitics to his own personal benefit. He has very much in mind the idea that for Israel it would be a lot easier

if

it could legitimate what the current Israeli government is doing every day

in

putting forward

the

risk of a clash of civilizations.

Of

course, if you say there is a risk of civilization and Israel is at the forefront, Israel is fighting

as

Benjamin Netanyahu says,

fighting for Europe.

And

President

Herzog

as well. Yes,

fighting for the U.S. to defend civilization.

But

how can you defend civilization

not

respecting humanitarian law, not respecting human lives, not respecting the necessity of justice? Civilization is two things. It's an inheritance of culture. It's an inheritance of duties. But it's also the ability to take the lessons from history and the lessons that we should take from the last 25 years since 9-11, the war on Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, the war in Libya, and so on, is that there is no way you can erase terror just by force. You need a political perspective. And I'm still waiting every day

for

somebody to stand up in Israel and say, OK,

we

have

obtained

what we wanted.

We

have erased Hamas. We have dismantled the Hezbollah. Now, let's give a perspective to the Palestinian people. Let's make sure that Lebanon will be able to reconstruct. Let's give hope to these people. You see, the best proof

of

madness of this region is that, as today,

so

little empathy in Israel for what's going on in Gaza.

And

on the side of the Arab, so little empathy for what happened on the 7th of October. Empathy is the precondition for humanity.

But

in this case, who can step in to play a role? Because we've seen the West either reluctant or simply unwilling, unprepared to step in to exert any pressure on Israel. In the case of the US, now with President-elect Trump's arrival, and with his cabinet and his advisers who are even more overt in their support for the occupation, where are

we

going to see solutions come from?

We

are in a moment

very

important for the world

because

the world is broken and every day more divided. Divided between the West

on

the defensive

and

emerging countries. We've seen that in the summit of Kazan with Russia, China, the BRICS,

which

are

organizing

themselves in a more and more polarized world. So we are at a turning point. And that's where Donald Trump comes.

And

Donald Trump is a man

totally

impredictable. This brings

both

a liability, a responsibility, but also an opportunity.

The

opportunity is that we know for sure

that

Donald Trump wants to put back on the agenda, the Abrams Accord.

He

wants to look at the region on a transactional

way.

Economic, technology,

betting

on the strong countries, Israel, Saudi Arabia, trying to solve the Iranian matter.

So

the question now,

in

the next two months,

is

a window of opportunity

for

the region as well as for Europe

to

get together, united, and to send two messages.

The

first one, we are united.

And

there is no way

we

are going to accept any deal

unless

we go for

a

Palestinian state. Saudi Arabia now is in a position of leadership in this region.

strategic

leadership, political leadership, religious leadership.

So

there is the position of Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia is at the center of the agenda of both Israel and the U.S. They are betting on Saudi Arabia

to

create an axis of stability

and

Saudi Arabia accepting the Abrams Accord.

And

of course for Europe,

for

Europe,

which

has fought

for

many, many decades for the two-state solution.

It

is a fantastic opportunity to put their weight

to

support the Arab countries.

But do you think that the Palestinian people, because they are largely absent in this process so far, do you think the Palestinian people have any faith in Saudi Arabia as a negotiator for peace?

I

think that

it

is a process. We should create the possibility of a new governance for the Palestinians.

We

should create a process for a new governance in Gaza. We should have a clear perspective of unifying Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. So it is a process of responsibility. We know that the Arab countries are ready with the support of the U.N. to create an interposition force. We know that they are ready to participate to the next administration of Gaza. But we know at the same time that Israel is preparing everything in Gaza to take over the control of the region. The Nectarine Corridor, the Philadelphia Corridor, a buffer zone around Gaza. At one point, we should say stop to Israel.

And so why doesn't Europe tell them to stop? 13, 14 months in. Why hasn't a

single

European country done that?

I think the European should get united. They will have to do so just to defend their own economic situation. They should do it on the basis of justice. And we have another reason to support such a strategy.

The

fact that

the

world order of 1945, the world order is dying because it is an unfair order. It is criticized by all the BRICs, by all the emerging countries, by all the poor countries of Africa, South America. It's time

to

recreate a new order. And my profound belief

is

that the world should start recomposing the new world order, starting with Palestine, which is the best and strongest symbol of justice.

So what could France, for example, do in concrete measures that they haven't done so far? Because we've heard some pushback from countries like Spain, for example. But in terms of actual steps, what

can we do? I think the one thing

that the Europeans could do

would

be collectively

to

launch the movement of recognition of Palestine as a state. President Macron said we favor such a movement, but it is not the right moment.

But

I'm asking, what is the right moment? I think it is an incredibly important move. Why? Because we see the despair in the region. And my profound belief is that if we don't do nothing, then at the end of the day, we will see

terrorist

movement taking the advantage, using the revolt, using the anger of the region to relaunch new attacks. I think we should put at the starting point the creation of Palestine as a nation state just to show the Palestinians that we are serious, we are committed, and then

do

the real and difficult work.

So

when you talk of a Palestinian state, are we talking about a state that would be on 22% of what was historic Palestine?

I think that

if

you are a young Palestinian,

the

question is not so much the size. You see, ideology has been dominating the region for decades, since 1948.

At

one point,

if

you are a Palestinian, what do you want? You want a future.

You

want a home.

You

want the possibility of having a sovereign country. this is what you want. Very concrete things. So, of course, the Hamas will say, no, we don't want that.

And Israel, presumably.

And, of course, Israel. And the Hamas and other terrorist organizations will say, no, what we want is to eradicate Israel. That's ideology. And one of the biggest dangers for the region is that what used to be a political issue, the question of Palestine, is today more and more a religious issue. And we know that when those issues are put on a religious basis, there is no end. No end to hate. No end to violence. So, we should be careful

in entering

in the deep

subject

of

creating

a future for the Palestinians and the possibility also for all the Arab world, which is very important, to try

to

begin to work together. The unity of the region, the solidarity in the region, the economic perspective. It is one of the richest regions in the world. And you have failed countries, poor people, a strong division between rich and poor. All this could be solved through a Middle East regional agreement. You could launch a new future for the region, starting with the principle of justice. And why Benjamin Netanyahu is putting so much energy

in

what he's doing? Of course, to save his own life. Yes. But also

because

he wants to eradicate, to erase the Palestinian question in order to realize what the maximalists in his government, the messianic

people

in his government, Benvir, Smoetrich, want, which is a great Israel.

Gaza

is the graveyard of more than just Gaza. It is the graveyard of international law, of the functioning of the UN. So if Israel has gotten away with this disproportional violence, what can the West do to Israel to make them accept even the idea of a Palestinian state?

I think

that diplomacy is a way to use the balance of forces in order to create new opportunities. If the Arab-Muslim countries of the region

get

united, if they were together with the Europeans

to

show

to

the United States that there is a red line,

you

should remember in

2018, Donald

Trump advocated

the

transfer of the capital from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. He defended in 2020 the Abrams Accord. He supported a peace plan with no perspective for the Palestinians. So he's capable to pressure Israel in a way Joe Biden was not able to do.

He

wants

to

put his marks in history.

So

he's transactional.

if

we put as a red line the necessity of the creation of a Palestinian state, if Saudi Arabia

accepts

to stand for this idea, then everything would be possible.

In an interview with The Atlantic, though, which was denied later on by Saudi authorities, MBS was reported to have said that he personally didn't care for the Palestinian issue, that his people did, but not him. Said Rehber later denied that. Isn't it very risky to put the fate of Palestine in the hands of Donald Trump?

There

is no blank check here.

There

is the fact that

we

know for sure

if

we are not going to take the opportunity to create the Palestinian state today, situation will get worse in the region tomorrow.

You

see,

when

you try to put into perspective

the

capabilities of this region in terms of disruption, we should remember in 1973, the same countries that decided to use oil and gas for embargo.

They

could decide to disrupt all

the

maritime corridors of the region and to disrupt international trade. They have the capacity for all the leaders of the region, even Northern Africa, Algeria, South Africa, who have been fighting in the International Court of Justice. all this country, they have in their hand

a

historical responsibility.

And

if you don't take this responsibility, things will get worse. We had the 7th of October. Who knows what we will have tomorrow? And we know that not doing anything is going to fuel violence, to reinforce Hamas, to reinforce Hezbollah, to reinforce all these terrorist organizations. It is the indifference, it is the inhumanity that is fueling violence. And that doesn't mean that we should forget the situation in Sudan, the situation in Ethiopia, the situation in Congo, the situation in Ukraine. But a new world needs to start. a new world order needs to start through action.

And

action can start tomorrow

in

Gaza and in Palestine.

Dominique Duvillepin, you're a politician and a diplomat with over four decades of experience. And you recently said that the irony of history is that sometimes when we are at the bottom of the abyss, something happens that can allow hope. it certainly feels in many ways that we are at this bottom already. What exactly do you feel we must be hopeful about going forward?

Well,

I think there's

something

very basic that we need to do every day. Just look

at

those

little

children

of

Gaza.

What

future will they get?

Think

about those little children in the northern part of Israel or in the southern part of Lebanon. What future? Bombs, more bombs, violence, deaths. Is this the future we wish for these people? And to end up this vicious circle of violence, we need to restart everything.

And

the world is going to fall apart. Globalization is going to fall apart. You see, all the people looking for getting richer,

that's

fine. but they won't get any richer if our world is going to be divided

in

one part the rich countries of the West, another part the countries of the global South with such a resentment that every day we will feel

even

inside our countries and in the rest of the world this danger as a threat to security and stability. And you see, there's something diplomats know well,

which

is the ruse of history.

The

last very important ruse of history has been

Russia

and China getting together. Nobody had thought before that this was possible.

So,

why tomorrow cannot we dream to have Saudi Arabia

and

Iran

getting

along one another

and

creating a new balance of forces in the region every time I go to the Middle East. I look to these people for decades, for centuries, they've been waiting for something to happen. And I see people getting richer in those countries, in the Gulf states, and I see the gap in between the people and the elites.

This

is not acceptable.

This

is a huge risk for the region. So, humanity, justice, realism, pragmatism,

this

should be on the agenda for all of us.

Well,

here's to a future of justice and peace. Thank you, Dominique de Vilpa.

Thank you so much, Fatima.

Thank you.