The Rise and Pause of Jordan Bardella • FRANCE 24 English

Ici en France, parce que la politique lancée a changé cette semaine après l'Apelle Court de judges upheld la verdict contre Marine Le Pen pour misapproprier European Parliament funds, mais réduit la 5-year ban sur la parole de la parole à 15 mois. Time already served, dit le Parish Court, avec Marine Le Pen, maintenant, la présidentielle hopeful pour la seule plus populaire partie en France, le far-right national rally. Mais ce qui est de l'année dernière dans cette histoire, Jordan Bardella, qui était presque le choix de la partie en l'absence de Le Pen, et qui a joué second fiddle.

Et si la picture est worth 1,000 mots, let's take a look at cette image. Elle a été voulant, elle a joué le Pen et Bardella a joué forces sur la campagne de la flèche. C'est un fascinant image, faire de ce que vous voulez.

Nous pouvons voir le rise et le pause de Jordan Bardella, le retour de Le Pen, en plus de détail, ce qui est pour la partie, ce qui est pour la France, avec Catherine Porter, international correspondent pour le New York Times, based en Paris. Good evening, Catherine. Great to talk to you tonight.

Hi, thanks for having me. When you see this image of Bardella, what do you read from it? What's your sense of the dynamic right now?

Because prima facie, it's all about the team. Yeah, well, that's what Marine Le Pen said when she announced on French television, public television, the night after the Court of Appeal made its ruling, that they would be a duo and she would be the president and he would be her prime minister. But you can see in this picture, and I will tell you, when I was there at this moment, you can see he's stiff.

He doesn't look that happy. His comments were pretty lukewarm that day, neither here nor there. And it's quite marked if you had looked at the covers of some of the French papers.

Liberation had an earlier photo of them before the verdict was read out in which they almost looked like a romantic couple. She had her arms around him, looking up at him, and he looked like the loving, doting mate. So this is a great picture that you pulled out.

And I think it captures her rise again. She's chosen that word, rebirth, France rebirth, for her campaign motto. She announced that, and there's a picture of her on that website, like Phoenix Rising, where Jesus is on the cross with her arms out raised.

The idea is that the party was with her family, was founded by her father, and she has been dragged through the mud and through the courts, and she will rise up once again. And I think her announcement that she would run and also appeal again to the highest court in the country surprised many people because just the week before, she had said that she would not run if she had some kind of house arrest or electronic bracelet on. And everyone had assumed that Bardella would be the presidential candidate.

The polls all show that he was even more popular than her, although she is also more popular than any other candidate other than him. He was coming out with his third book, you know, and there are long lineups for people who want to read his books and celebrate him. He was already kind of the Dauphin that had been chosen.

And suddenly, to the surprise of most onlookers, and perhaps even people in her party, but certainly him, he is playing second fiddle. And we know in France that at least for the last seven years, being prime minister is not usually a role you keep for very long. It's a temporary job.

And the real power of anyone in this country who runs it is really in the office of the president. So he has lost. And the prime ministers often can be dispatched with if things go wrong as well.

There's always a high risk with that job, as we know, given the revolving door we've seen in the past couple of years as well. Fascinating you were there as well in La Fleche because I'd like to get your take on this. Let's have a listen to what Jordan Bardella told reporters.

He was asked whether he was relieved or disappointed. He said neither relieved or disappointed. Then asked what he felt about the prospect of being led by Le Pen once again.

He was chipper. I'm extremely happy that we can launch our campaign with Marine because millions of French people are waiting for change today. They're waiting for a fresh start after 10 years of Emmanuel Macron which have done considerable damage to our country.

And so I'm delighted that we can launch our campaign together. Now as you touched upon a moment ago Catherine he's currently said to be finishing his third book. I spoke to Peter Conradi yesterday the Sunday Times your correspondent who said that he thought he was around about this time that there was almost an expectation that this was his moment.

It kind of hits differently doesn't it? If he comes out say September and he's not the party leader. You've met him.

Tell me about the sense of him you get not just in La Fleche but those around him as well because just to try and take us into those who are dealing with him the Bardella team how perhaps it differs from the Le Pen team those key figures that we'll be advising him right now and perhaps those saying your time is yet to come. Well first of all it was interesting he was saying how thrilled he was but look at that face. Yeah.

You know and this is a politician who his only job has been in politics as all he's done. Does he look that thrilled? Does he look that happy for someone whose job is only to do this? he doesn't look that thrilled to me and what was really interesting being there is because it was supposed to be this big moment for her and they chose this little town which very few people in France had heard of which has no train station to get there you have to take a train to Le Mans and then rent a car because it's her family stronghold.

Her sister moved there and ran for a seat from there. Her sister's husband who's one of her her main advisors and the Euro deputy is also from there and his assistant became the mayor of the town. So this is a family stronghold which I thought was also really interesting because they went to this place that screams Le Pen and doesn't scream Bardella and it was a reminder I think to people to remind them look her dad started this party this is a family business.

He was brought in to take over for a bit but let's see how long he lasts. You know Le Pen has been like I say it's a family brand she's well known she's a populist she's very anti-immigrant but also populist economics. Bardella is very different he's surrounded himself with much younger way more pro-business advisors.

He's mentioned maybe not making as making as many radical changes to the retirement that she had always she's always campaigned on reducing the age of retirement again he's weakened on that he's been courting big business in Paris which is very unusual A it's unusual because most of the big businessmen would not have met with the RN four years ago they were always considered dangerous but also many in France wouldn't have met with them anyway there was something they call a cordon sanitaire basically wall saying that they were they should not be touched but certainly they would not have met with Le Pen and they have been meeting with Bardella himself but also his advisors you know one of his main advisors is the right-hand man of a very rich investment man in France named Edward Sturin who's a libertarian economically very liberal economic policies so you can see he is trying to tilt the party a little bit more conservative in the American sense of the conservative party as opposed to a populist party which is much more socialist when it comes to economics That's a very very interesting point and on both on both issues actually first of all in Sartre in this area La Flesche there was huge crowds there was some kind of local social media commentary that it was the popularity of something called the roulette de la Sartre which is like a slow cooked pork dish in the market that that was flying off the shelves but no it's because these two chose this place and what we go back to the local elections earlier this year back in March that was the victory after decades of socialist rule there as well so you have family connections but as you say it presents itself rather nicely towards Marine Le Pen and yet yes there were lots and lots of supporters there for them but the pots and pans being banged and I know you saw as well with those making it clear that they didn't want somebody convicted to be running for office you also talked about the divergence it was very clear I just say it was very clear that this campaign even though the polls show that you know it's RNs to lose because they're so far ahead it's going to be it's going to be a messy race and we could see it on that that morning that was supposed to be this kind of very important significant symbolic morning of her walking through a market and being greeted by adoring fans and instead she couldn't actually stroll through the market she was stopped because there were so many protesters who were whistling screaming chanting Marine in prison Marine in prison yelling that they wanted money back and that she should be ashamed to be there and there were so many of them that literally she couldn't continue with her stroll that was supposed to be this triumphant beginning of her campaign so it was clear I think it was it became very clear how divided the country is but also how messy this campaign will be and how even though the polls might have her in the lead it will be a real fight this year yes because as we know from what it'll be fourth time lucky as we know from previous occasions where the first round if the far right win then other parties then coalesce around the opponent and previously it's got closer and closer but it's always been as we saw with President Macron a different figure that leads when it comes to the divergence slight divergence of policies that is fascinating as well because we're dealing with Le Pen talking about reducing the retirement age we're talking about a deficit in France of what more than 5% right now so the suggestion that just from listening to Catherine is that actually Bardello is putting out a more of a business package perhaps for France I mean like certainly it's far too early to know the other thing is Le Pen you know is a known quantity here she has been in politics for a long long time I think people know many what she stands for and what her family stands for Bardello is basically a bit of a chimera we don't really know what he he's great on TikTok he looks good he's good looking people love him but he hasn't had to run a real campaign other than a snap election in which they lost in a way that was spectacular at least during the second round I don't think he's as known and even among his party people don't really know what he stands for and where the divergence is they keep repeating that they're you know hand in pocket there's no piece of paper as the expression says between them and not a cigarette paper between them but the truth is Le Pen is much more of a known quantity than he is and I think for France it will be interesting too she's also a very good campaigner and a very confident public speaker so in some ways I think it will be harder to beat her than it might be to beat Bardella and it's worth saying as well just the kind of those are there were what 30 other candidates in the race right now very early doors the centre and the left are kind of jockeying for position but it's fascinating to hear how the other candidates to be are kind of reacting to this moment let's take a listen to Edouard Philippe the mayor of Lavre and possibly one of the two main centre candidates this was his reaction to Le Pen being back on the scene the courts have ruled Madame Le Pen is a candidate for the fourth time and it is a political contest that will allow the French people next year to decide who the future president will be whether a man or a woman and that is exactly as it should be personally I would rather commit myself and defeat Madame Le Pen at the ballot box than see her disappear because of a court ruling and two things strike me here Catherine first of all the way the other parties are kind of reacting and secondly I was speaking recently to Victor Mallet the author of Far Right France and at one point he was making and tell me if this echoes with you is the extent of detoxification of the party devilising the party over the years that there used to be a fact that people wouldn't come out straight and say I support the far right but now whether it's in the town halls or meetings or in public in the bars people are quite you know this is my position we support the far right but it completely changed what's your take? well yeah when I moved to Paris in 2022 I couldn't get someone on the street to tell me they voted for the RM it was impossible they were they had just gone from seven seats which made them not even an official party and they were up into the dozens by then nothing to what they are now but still there was this cordon sanitaire which I said like this this sanitary barrier I remember reporting on how there's a parliamentary soccer game and they none of the other parties wanted to play if the RM were going to play they were considered distasteful and people were embarrassed to admit that they voted for them that is not the case at all now people are very open over the last I'd say since the snap election in fact two years ago people have been much more open they have managed to make themselves seem and appear become a regular normalized party with many positions and planks in a program that have nothing to do with immigration they have positions on many other things they vote on you know crime particularly law and order but they have positions on all sorts of things and that was what their whole plan was to make them seem normal I remember when they started again when I came in 2022 there was a big campaign for them to be wearing ties and jackets in the National Assembly to dress to dress the part and to act the part I think they've been helped to some degree by the far extreme left party France Unbowed which over the last four years have taken positions the opposite howling always very noisy and boisterous and their approach to politics is to shut down meetings rather than to continue with them and so by comparison many in France have said well I would rather the far right than the far left and the far left polls show are considered more dangerous to democracy now in France by the French than the far right so she has has been a massive success for this for this party that since 2012 Marine Le Pen has been trying very hard to normalise and she's managed to do it and dealing with them journalistically Catherine as a party are they in general and maybe it differs depending on the team Bardella or Team Le Pen or others within the party are they embracing towards you are they do they give you are they prickly spiky towards you what's the kind of atmosphere in that relation you have you know I don't cover politics all the time but I do have a number of people in the RN who answer my calls who meet me for coffee and they always have they've always been open that is also another part of you know of their program I remember when I started interviewing them in 2022 they were so shocked that I was interested in them because they had gone from a non-status party to a real party and they were just enjoying having a role in the National Assembly but no I have found that the far right in France has always been open to answering calls and discussing their positions they don't have they do not what's the word they don't damn the press at least at this point they seem very open to talking to the press and in the UK I'm struck by something that comes up time and time again the difference the public and private nature of people people used to say about Gordon Brown the old prime minister how different he was privately if you just knew him he had this radical sense of humour it didn't come across he came across a very dour prime minister is there a difference between this very you know the sheen of the public image of Jordan Bardella for example the Instagram Bardella and what you're seeing in Flesch in conversation in La Flesch for example is there a contrast or not? Well I don't know Bardella very well personally I've met him a few times but I wouldn't be the right person I think you'd have to talk to someone who only covers politics you know and who only covers him this way I don't think that he speaks it's mostly it's people around him that speak very openly so you know the head of the parliamentary committee is very open many of his many of the elected lawmakers are very open and you see them talking regularly to the press and they actually seem when I meet with them they say the same thing to me as I see them say in the House in the National Assembly on television it doesn't seem any different actually any different actually And a brief thought when we talk about kind of the de-devilising the party kind of the normalising the party and other parties that have moved as well kind of towards a much harder immigration anti-immigration line not just in France but as we know in Europe when it comes to the fact that you've got this position within the party you know I am struck by the fact that they are almost they are radical in a sense Catherine that if they are in power not just in immigration but when it comes to citizens' rights of non-French citizens things would change quite a lot wouldn't they?

Yeah they have France first policy so which would go against the you know people who are in France but don't have French citizenship would be second class when it comes to getting socialised housing when it comes to even getting medicine they want to strip away hospital visits for free for migrants which is you know they want to basically distinguish within the system here between people who are French people who are here on visas or people who are non-status and applying for refugee status so you know when you speak to law people constitutional lawyers they will tell you that it goes against the constitution they have spoken about doing a referendum on that and changing it would be a radical change you know but they have shifted the water you know we've had Macron's ministers of interior over the last two years have all been quite right-wing they have been introducing more measures that are anti-migrant and I think that they have managed to change the public dialogue and the accepted positions of many people have shifted to the right because of the popularity of the RN great to talk to you Catherine really good thank you for your time today thank you Catherine Porter thanks for having me take care international correspondent at the New York Times based here in Paris thank you