Collegium Book Talk with Jennifer Reed Bouley and Bernard Prusak

Well, good afternoon or good morning or good evening, whenever you're tuning into this Collegium Book Talk. My name is Karen Eiffler, and I serve as director of Collegium, a national colloquy on faith and intellectual life. And we have launched this new series of book talks because we realized that the orbit of Collegium alums includes lots of really interesting thinkers and creative folks. And we want to shine a light on those and maybe even point people to how they can get these books and creative works. Today, I'm joined by Jennifer Reed Bully and Bernard Prusak. Jennifer is a professor of theology and directs a theology program at College of St. Mary in Omaha, Nebraska.

And Bernard Prusak has just taken up the Raymond and Eleanor Smiley chair in business at business ethics at the Bowler College of Business at John Carroll University. And in 2023, they published, well, Paulist Press published for them this wonderful book, Catholic Higher Education and Catholic Social Thought, which I'm having a hard time deciding what is my favorite chapter. And all I know is at least at least a couple of them are going to make their way into the Collegium Reader and some Collegium follow up. But I knew for sure that we needed to hear from the editors of this ambitious project. So I'm delighted that you could make some time for that today.

I'm going to start with a pretty open ended question and you can just chime in when you feel comfortable, Jennifer and Bernard. Why this project? What drew you to this project and why now? Jennifer, do you want to take a first?

Sure. Well, first of all, thanks so much for having us, Karen. I'm really delighted to be able to talk about our book. There were a couple of incidences and thoughts and reflections that led us to this book. Bernard and I had been a part of the Catholic Social Thought Learning and Research Initiative since 2015. Actually, even before that, it's a group of faculty and staff and administrators from about 12 different colleges looking at how Catholic Social Thought could be further infused into Catholic higher education.

We were mainly interested in curricular issues and then we recognized a need for looking at how Catholic social thought could influence the operations of Catholic higher education and recognizing that there really aren't very many resources on that. And so that led us into the into the project. But there were other things as well. So, Bernard, do you want to add some more?

Sure. Just one more. And let me echo Jennifer's thanks, Karen. So we're really grateful to talk with you. We're also grateful that we got a Collegium Catalyst grant. And maybe we could talk a little bit about that later. So I'll note just one other experience. So coming out of that, well, two other experiences, maybe that coming out of that Catholic Social Thought Learning and Research Initiative, we have great colleagues through that. We edited, guest edited a volume of the Journal of Catholic Higher Education, and we focused, as Jennifer suggested, on operational dimensions of CST.

So, for example, just one questions of labor policy, I, the next year, I think this is 2018, put together a faculty staff development workshop at King's College in Pennsylvania, which is where I was then. And it was great. We met, you know, just about monthly over the course of the year. But what I found was that it was really difficult to find articles, chapters and the like that worked for that purpose. So that was part of the genesis of this book. It seemed like there really was a niche for a book like this that could be put to good use in faculty, staff development workshops, good use, too, for board retreats, good use for reflection among senior administration.

So Jennifer and I, you know, decided to collaborate to design the book for those purposes. And publishers love it when you can deliver them a nice big audience for that book. That was the promise we made. Inspired. Inspired. One of the things I really liked, especially in the introduction, is you start with a question, are we a system adrift? And you actually make a case for, yes, we are, and a case for, no, we're not, which as good academics, we can argue both sides. In what ways do you perceive the system, if you will, of, let's say, Catholic higher education as a system adrift? And then you could shift into, are there ways in which we're not adrift?

Do you want to strike that one, Bernard?

Sure. So we were talking about this a little bit in advance, and it's such a good question, Karen. And the point that I'll begin with is one that Jim Heft often makes, and I think he makes it again in his book on the open circle model for higher education. Namely, that Catholic higher education is not really a system, not much of a system in any event. And if you study the history of how it came to be, somewhat haphazard, not in a bad sense, but you've got a lot of local institutions serving local needs, a lot of competition, not much by way of collaboration, not much by way of coordination.

I think that's still the case, not much by way of collaboration, not much by way of competition, excuse me, not much by way of coordination, a lot of competition for sure for dwindling numbers of students. I'll let Jennifer talk more about the aspects of drift, let's say. I'll just say, currently, Catholic higher education, as we all know at our institutions, unless we're at Notre Dame or Georgetown or BC, maybe, is really blown about by all kinds of circumstances coming out of the pandemic, economic circumstances, all kinds of uncertainty, political uncertainties as well in the church.

Church politics does not always help Catholic colleges and universities, and certainly we're all facing this great demographic challenge. So those are some of the ways in which we're blown about. Jennifer, I'm going to let you speak about ways we could talk about drift, if we're going to take the metaphor in that direction.

Sure. Well, I really appreciate, Karen, that you showed the book cover, because that's an image of the situation that Catholic higher education is in, right? We're in this boat, and the winds are changing, and there's a lot of fear there at many of our colleges and universities. And so, I think, especially as we think about the movement from leadership by vowed religious to lay leadership, we recognize the need for ongoing and consistent formation of leaders.

And as Bernard mentioned, boards of trustees, senior administrators, faculty, and staff, and that that not be done in an episodic way, but that that be done in a very intentional and deliberate way, so that there are various levels at which people can get invested and involved with the Catholic mission and identity of their universities. As I would agree with Bernard, that, you know, we're still providing excellent education to our students, which is core to our mission, but there are ways in which perhaps we've drifted that make us further from our mission. And I think Laura Nichols' chapter is a particularly good one on that.

Her chapter title is What Students, Which Mission, and she talks about how many of the smaller Catholic colleges and universities, in particular, are under such financial strains. And there's a huge gap in endowments between those that are best endowed and those that are really struggling. And so it's a challenge in terms of the students that we admit and how much they can afford to pay.

So her challenge in her chapter is to consider how should our mission as Catholic colleges and universities align with the particular groups of students that we admit, so that we're not simply reproducing class inequalities in society, but rather so that we're giving opportunities to groups who otherwise might not have it. So that would just be one example of how our missions can become more aligned with our operations.

Right. You mentioned earlier that we're still reeling from the impact of COVID and the worldwide pandemic. If I'm correct, this was a COVID project. And I'm wondering, maybe you can help redeem a worldwide pandemic in my mind and perhaps listeners mind. Was there anything about the period of lockdown and sort of the shrinking of our world that made this book possible to put together?

I'll just say briefly that though, you know, COVID and all of the suffering that it has caused and is causing, not sure it can ever be redeemed. One aspect of lockdown for us as we were conceiving of the book and managing to put it together was that we arranged a series of zoom sessions in winter spring 2021. And we had initially intended those as face to face presentations at particular colleges and universities, and therefore it would have been limited to the people who could be there in person. Instead, we did those via zoom and we had about 900 people participate in those. And it was a really wonderful way for each of the authors to get some feedback as she or he was writing the chapter.

And then I think it made the whole book cohere in a better fashion.

Great, great, lots of voices, lots of voices. Bernard, do you want to add anything to that? I'll just say quickly, you know, a word of thanks to Collegium since Tom Landy at that time was the director, and Tom hosted three of those events. We had colleagues at University of San Francisco, Loyola, Chicago, Villanova, College of St. Mary, University of Scranton, John Carroll University, so on and so forth, hosting those events. It was a really good way to construct the book and also to kickstart the conversation that we want the book to advance. So the way in the way in which we had the authors present or ask the authors to present was already part of our project.

Jennifer and I have thought about this as a book. We began talking about it in 2019 and the naive days before the pandemic. But for us, it's not only a book. So the book is is is a product, but it's a part of a project to structure and stimulate these kinds of crucial conversations. We believe on on college campuses. Conversations are happening elsewhere, too. But our intention has been for this book to contribute to that that that that wider and deeper goal. One of the conversations that I know for sure is happening at Catholic colleges and universities across the country is wrestling with very explicitly with the needs and commitments.

And one of the things that's really surprised me is that running into this idea that somehow pursuing deij priorities is in conflict with Catholic social teaching. And I I don't really have a very good answer to that beyond. I'm just really surprised. And I'm wondering from your perspective, if you could give us some answers to the question about what are generative, what are life giving or appropriate relationships between the body of Catholic social teaching and tradition and the current focus? That's very necessary focus on DEIJ issues on our campuses. You want to go first, Jennifer?

Yeah, I guess I would say that the focus on diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, justice are those. That is an integral part of the Catholic social tradition. And so we have two chapters that explicitly address those issues, though it permeates everything. The chapter by Michelle Maldonado on the Latin next future of Catholic higher education, I think, is important on that one. And then the chapter by Tia Noel Pratt and Maureen O'Connell looking at anti-black racism that has really pervaded our Catholic institutions. And so we're not innocent in this. As they point out, we have to reckon with both historical and current injustices and that they are curricular.

But they're also part of how our institutions were founded, part of the stories and the legacies of our institutions and how they're currently set up. So I'm also curious as to how a strong argument could be made that these two are in conflict with one another, especially when you consider that really the bedrocks of Catholic social teaching as an official tradition. We know that it's more than that, right? It's also the stories and the lived experiences and the thoughts of scholars and the institutionalized ways that we embody it.

When we think of human dignity and the common good as what I would say are the foundational principles, those, it seems to me, would lend themselves quite easily toward a focus on diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, justice as ways to honor the dignity of the human person and the importance of forming a community in which everyone can thrive.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, I suppose if I, I'll just add, and I'm not going to be as eloquent as Jennifer on that point. These, you know, tensions on our campuses, and there are some tensions on various campuses over DEI, DIB, DIJ, here it's B, belonging, are potentially productive. So, you know, these discussions can be so polarized and unhelpful, but if the question is how to articulate DEI concerns in ways that really hook into the Catholic tradition, perhaps also challenge the Catholic tradition, call the Catholic tradition to growth.

Well, that's a worthwhile discussion to have so what are some principles of Catholic social thought that might align well with DEI concerns, certainly subsidiarity, certainly participation. I think, though, that we do well to ask ourselves how we can, you know, learn from, you know, people who haven't perhaps, you know, been the voices that have helped to construct this tradition. People have been marginalized and excluded, and we do well to learn from or at least listen to our colleagues at secular institutions who have developed DEI. So one question for Catholics, Catholic institutions is, how can you think about DEI in ways that are authentically Catholic?

Another question is, what can we learn from people from other perspectives, and how might the Catholic social thought tradition need to develop in order to speak to the concerns of the day? It's not a static bag tricks, principles that are open to growth. One of the things I always hope to do in these book talks is give listeners a taste of the book, maybe a tantalizing taste of the book to inspire them to add it to their professional library or ask their centers for teaching excellence or mission offices to add it to the library.

And I'd love if each of you could share a favorite, not the favorite, because you love every chapter equally, I know, and your authors all contributed amazing things. But if you were to share a specific either strategy for weaving CST into the work that we all do as members of Catholic higher ed, we're teachers, we're scholars, we're community members. What is either a favorite strategy that might be portable across contexts or a way of leaning into the principles of Catholic social teaching that readers would pick up when they read your book? That's a tough one, Karen. I mean, certainly the best chapters, Jennifer's together with Catherine.

Or maybe it's the introduction by by me and Jennifer. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'm going to choose a chapter. Let me make a slightly different point and Jennifer can can speak to portable strategies. I think, you know, one one lesson of the book as a whole, and, you know, this is a hobby horse of mine as a philosopher, perhaps, is that CST is not always best conceived in terms of a limited number of principles in here. And here I'm picking up a point that you just made, Karen. I mean, when we think of the list, we've got seven, we've got 10, and sometimes it's hard to understand how, you know, the so called principles of principle.

When you tell a philosopher, the principle is rights and responsibilities, a philosopher is not pleased. So, so I think it's better to think of these different principles as expressions of the requisites of justice. And also to recognize, as Jennifer noted a few minutes ago, that the tradition is wider than not only principles, but also magisterial documents, for sure. Those are crucial. Tradition includes as well the work of scholars, the work of saints, work of all sorts of people doing corporal and spiritual works of mercy. And I think, you know, a number of the chapters, you know, illustrate this point, namely the point that, that the tradition is, is wider than these principles.

We don't always have to hang our hat on principles to be developing an argument that's very much situated within and drawing from the Catholic social tradition. So maybe Jennifer will answer your, your, your question directly.

Well, it was such a privilege to work on this project, working in collaboration with Bernard, and then learning so much from each of these authors, because each author has a specialization in the particular area in which she or he wrote. And so I learned a great deal through this process. So I, I can't pick one particular portable strategy because there are strategies and there are ways of framing discussions in every chapter that I think are really valuable. And if I had to say one thing overall, I would say it's the methodology of a chapter followed by discussions, discussion questions that each institution can engage in based upon their own particular situation.

As Jim have discusses in his chapter about forming leaders. No one institution can do everything we have in our book because of limited human and financial resources. And so when a university or a college decides, okay, X is going to be our focus, then I would say, turn to that chapter because you'll have some great ideas. One part that was dear to my heart was Matt Mazuski's analysis of investment decisions, and he focused on mercy investment services, which is the investment group for all mercy colleges universities and the sisters of mercy.

And he points out that you know the negative screens are important, but the positive screens are also important and so how mercy investment services is actually allocating a certain percentage of their portfolio into the life giving work that then allows more students to attend mercy colleges and universities. So that was something that I found particularly interesting.

I think, I think, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Karen, please, I was just gonna say we could give a shout out to Matt chapter Matt, I think is the youngest of all the scholars he was finishing his PhD in economics at Columbia, when he when he joined the project. So that's fair, I think all contributors will be happy for us to give a shout out to Matt. And I'm really happy that you also shined a light on one of the things I most treasure about the book, which is it lends itself so well to a reading group, and whoever's leaving the reading group doesn't have to come up with the questions because you very kindly and astutely provided discussion questions.

So it's it's going to be a great thing for for faculty reading groups or workshops and in services and information opportunities on campus and so thank you for building that in. As our time starts to wind down a little bit just a couple more questions. So one might seem like a little bit of a challenge and that is when and if you do a second edition of this book Catholic higher education and Catholic social thought, is there a chapter or a set of ideas that you would that you would want to tap into and add to the body that you've built so effectively here.

Do you want to take that one Bernard or do you want me to start. Okay, well, what we were trying to do is look at how do people learn about the Catholic tradition through the actions or operations of their college or university. So not only what do we say about being Catholic, but what are we doing about being Catholic in terms of its congruence with Catholic social thought. We didn't have a chapter on LGBTQ plus issues, and that might be one that we would want to consider because it's so important on our campuses right now. Do you have any other ideas Bernard about another topic.

Yes, and let me just echo the point that you made, you know, are we didn't use this term yet. The book is in some ways about the hidden curriculum of our institutions. So we teach students in the classroom, but certainly, you know, the whole institution teaches students through the ways in which it conducts its operations. Think of food services, for example. You know, what's the cutlery mean? Think of whether there's recycling or composting on campus. These, you know, these, these are important lessons, not, I would say just as important as the lessons in a classroom. So I think Jennifer's right. Maybe a deeper dive into DEI and, you know, explicitly focus.

It's not that our chapters, those two chapters don't go deep into DEI, but maybe one that's, that's really just explicitly on that, that theme. And, and would have more to say about LGBTQ. Vince Miller suggested when the book was already well underway, that it might be interesting to have its chapter on marketing, which would go together perhaps with Laura Nichols chapter on, on mission and admissions. So how we talk about ourselves, how we pitch ourselves to students. And there's a lot to study there at perhaps every institution, how, how the institution talks about its Catholic identity or not.

How it talks about its charism, what sorts of claims and promises and so on and so forth it makes. I'm not sure if it fits in this book or not, but certainly as part of hidden curriculum. And it's interesting to think about how marketing, you know, could or could not be informed by Catholic social thought. So far, the book's gotten one review, at least as far as I know, named by Nancy Dallavale and Commonweal. And it's a great review. And Jennifer and I are grateful for it. We couldn't have asked for a better one. We did not ask Nancy for it, but couldn't have asked for a better one. Nancy does make one observation that the book is more diagnostic than prescriptive.

And that's for sure the case. We're not experts on what each and every institution should do. There's there's no way we could be. But it might be interesting to have more to say about just how leaders might might be shaped, might be formed. You know, what different resources there are. You know, for somebody like you, Karen, who knows the resources, but you probably also know the deficits for that matter. Like I wonder wonder if we should be doing this, but we're not. That could maybe be interesting to consider if there were a second edition, I think, or when there's a second edition.

I think it's going to spur a lot of really fruitful conversations where people will tackle those questions in ways distinctive to their local context, which is exactly the way it should be to use a principle of Catholic social teaching, subsidiarity. And last question. You mentioned that you were both recipients of a collegium catalyst grant, and thank you for that shout out. But one of the hopes in the catalyst grant project is not that people just do great one and done projects, but it actually does catalyze ongoing activities, ongoing change, ongoing giving of life.

And one of the things that came out of your collaboration maybe started with a book, but it also results that in a website and a consulting enterprise around these matters. Would you each say just a little bit about what you're excited about and you want people to know about your website, which the URL is in the materials that that are coming with the link to this podcast? What would you really like us to know about about that service that you're making available to institutions?

Well, the book can stand on its own, but I think it's really useful. I found this to be the case in my own professional development to have someone outside the institution, helping to ask questions and facilitate conversation. And so that's really what Bernard and I tried to do we are grant allowed us to spend four days with a fabulous group of faculty, staff, and administrators at Seattle University that Catherine Juan Monalimos invited, and it was just so generative to be able to sit in the same room and talk face to face about particular chapters. And then for them to brainstorm about initiatives that are already present at their university and how they might develop those.

Also, I think it can be helpful for people to see that they might actually be doing more that is congruent with Catholic social thought than they imagine, but they might not have had the language to describe it in that way. And so to help them to see the connections in that way, we we and then all of the chapter authors are very willing to consult via zoom or in person with any group, whether it be boards of trustees or administrators or faculty and staff to just think about this because we we really can only frame the dialogue and provide some language around it. And then people, as you say, Karen, know what's going to work for their own campus.

Great. Thank you for that. Just add briefly. So I've done some work in bioethics over the years, and there's a there's a fear, at least among some physicians about bioethicists, that they'll come and tell you what to do as if they're going to take over care of your your patients. And it's a really important fear to to allay quite quickly. I don't know that there's this fear about Catholic social thought, but in any event, maybe there's a misconception that the principles yield clear answers. They typically don't. Once one does any moral philosophy, one comes to realize very important, very quickly, the importance of circumstances.

What the question principles, though, can do to echo point Jennifer made is is to help to frame questions and to give us language with which to think those questions through. It's not the only language. It's not the only frame, not the only perspective. And there's much to learn from other traditions. But but but this is a rich tradition to draw from not only minute magisterial documents, but those those two for sure. So our hope is that we'll be able to contribute to conversations on on campus, advance those conversations. And I'll make two points. One, as Jennifer said, not only she and I are available, but also all the contributors.

And two, I should thank not only you, Karen and Collegian for the Catalyst Grant, but we should also thank the Raskob Foundation and Teresa Robinson since they gave us some money that allowed us to put together that that website and to do some advertising. Great. And the synonym synodality, which just got underway in the last week, seems like the stirring up of a pot where conversation and really being intentional about the language that we use. And the questions that we ask and making sure that everybody is understanding the language in the similar way. Again, I think that's a real gift that your book is giving us.

And so I want to thank you for taking some time to talk with us about Catholic higher education and Catholic social thought edited by Jennifer Reed Bully and Bernard Prusak available from Paulist Press. And you'll find a link to that directly in the link where you got this recording. Thank you so much for being with us. And I bid you I wish you only good things in the days and weeks ahead. And I hope that that there's just a lot of great fruit that comes out of this endeavor. You've done us all something really special.

Thanks, Karen. Thank you so much, Karen. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.