How to Build the Right Legal Culture - Itzik Amiel and David S. Cohen

So

hello everybody and welcome, welcome and joining us. Thanks for joining us for this live LinkedIn session and I hope all of you are here with us and participating. I'm Itzy Kamiel and we are here with the weekly interviews series called Switch It On and where we talk to actually be smart and talented people from all over the world to teach you or to share with you how you can switch your practice and absolutely your life. And it will be people from out of your comfort zone, not necessarily from your community, people you need to know and you don't necessarily know already. So you are very invited to join us. And today we are going to talk about legal culture.

So please feel free to type in the chat box and let us know where you are, where you're dialing from. We want to know who you are because that's important to all of us. Thanks Dale, thanks to David, Alex. Awesome to see you all coming. So type in in the chat where you are to see that all of you.

I

know for all of the world people joining us, it's important also for our guests to know when you're approaching and speaking about the subject.

So

I have the honor actually today to have this live session with a friend and a true culture, a pioneer and expert. Today my special guest is Dr. David Cohen.

So

before I invite David to join us, let me give you a short introduction about David. So David Cohen is a thought leader on corporate culture and behavioral competencies. He's an author and a speaker and he's the founder of the principal consultant of DS Cohen and Associates. David actually works with leaders, helping them understand what is and what is not necessary to build an active and positive organization.

He

helps leaders step into life challenges, inspiring them really to create sustained approach through a value-based focus, resulting in better business results.

David

is a member of Marshall Goldschmidt MG 100 coaches, and he's also authored two books and numerous articles in professional journals. So without further ado, I know I can go on. I will let David join us. So welcome very much, David. And we appreciate you for coming and joining us. Thank you for that.

Thanks for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Sure. So

I'm sure everybody here for a treat. And I really,

again,

appreciate your time and willing to join us live. And before I start with the first question to you, let me start the stage with our conversation for our listeners and viewers.

Because

this is actually a session we want to dedicate to the important side of culture or firm culture for those professionals joining us.

Because

I have no doubt that creating and nurturing an environment

that

supports professionals, both as professionals in the field, as well as as human beings, and treats everyone fairly, it's critical to a firm's success, especially in our days.

And

challenging the firm culture empowers firms to help their employees, to help their clients, and even help their business to thrive.

And

in this session, I want to explore with you, David, what is exactly firm culture? What is a strong working culture looks like? And what is it so important to the firm, to all people coming from firm growth? And I know I didn't have it in the firm. I used to work. And I think it's so important to a lot of the new workforce or entering firms to join for them.

So

I'd like to start with a little short thing. I think you're already familiar with it, with 10 in 1. And I will ask you very fast 10 questions, and we have one minute for it. And

I'll

get your answer. And then with that, we'll dive into the next question. Okay, so are

you

ready, David?

I'm

ready, but you know what

I

mean? I talk too much, so 10 in 1 might be 10 in 2.

No worries. But so here we go. So by the way, to all of you there who are joining us, you can also participate in the same time. If you want to add something in the chat and answer as well when David answering, do that because it's important for our discussion.

So

let's start with the first question. So the first question for you, David, is, is firm culture important for firm success? Definitely, absolutely not, or you have no idea?

Oh,

it's absolutely. Without a clear, every firm, whether they define it or not, has a culture. And when the employees are aligned with the culture,

it's

definitely a foundation for success.

Right.

Second question, question number two. Legal culture, one model fits all

firms

or tailor-made to each firm?

There

are so many different, every firm in the world

has

a different culture because every employee and every leader in that firm had a different life experience and a different set of values.

And

even if they have the same words, the definition is often different.

So

no two firms' culture is alike.

They

could be similar,

but

they're not alike.

Awesome. Thanks, David. Question number three.

Firm

culture, the task of the firm leadership or of everyone in

the firm?

That's a chicken and egg story. But I would say it's the leadership of the firm, when it is founded, that establishes the culture.

It's

the leadership of the firm to maintain the culture and celebrate it.

And

it's everybody's responsibility to live it and hold one another accountable to

it. Great.

Next, question number four. Is legal culture only applied to large firm, also to medium and small firm? Because I know a lot of attendees doesn't account for the big firms.

If

you have two people, you have a company culture.

Great. Number five.

It's actually harder with a large firm, but more important.

Okay.

Thanks. The number five. Are elements like employee recognition and reward a part of a law firm culture? Absolutely or not always?

Oh, absolutely. But if you're going to use your culture as a foundation for your reward and recognition, make sure that you also don't reward somebody who violates it, even though they've

been

a rainmaker and brought a lot of people in.

Great.

And we're going to come to it soon when we talk a little more in detail.

So,

question number six.

Is

correct to assume that more than 50% of law firm operational challenges are related to culture? Will you say it's a BS or completely agree about

it? I

would say it's more completely agree.

Great.

Number seven. Is culture just something you can do once and tick it off your to-do list? Or it's always a work in progress?

Culture is every day.

It's

continuous. If you forget about it and violate it, everybody knows it and it destroys you.

Thanks,

David. Question number eight. What is better key indicator for increased productivity and higher retention rates? Is employee happiness or client's happiness?

Well,

actually,

let's

come back to that later because I have a long answer for that.

Okay.

And I think it deserves the time. So, let's try to stay within two minutes. Come back to number eight.

Great. You said I didn't give you even answers to give because I know there's a long answer. Number nine. Do you think that due to the corona crisis, law firm culture become a more important

matter? Less

important or the same?

I

think it's

more

important because one question most CEOs in any firm ask me is how are we going in a hybrid workplace to maintain our culture?

How

are we going to let our new employees even know what the culture is?

So,

I think it's actually more important right now.

Great. And the last question for the one, 10 in one is number 10. Risk taking is strongly linked

to

a well-liked culture, true or false?

Come back to that one also because I've got a nice answer for that one. But the reality is that risk taking, it depends on how you define risk taking. And if

we're

dealing with financial institutions and law firms, risk taking could get you in trouble and wind you up in jail. So, I'd be careful about risk taking.

Awesome. Great. So, I think with that, we finish our 10 in one, David. And you answer all my questions. I think we can ready to continue developing more. I just want to say welcome to those people who are joining us now and you see the comments. And I would encourage you, if you have your own questions for David during these things, David is for that. So, please put your question also in the chat to ask David during our call of

the

year.

and

we'll see Adele and see Alex and Ramey and Sharon.

And we

have people from almost every continent, David, here. Yeah,

I feel like. Which is

awesome. Which is everything we talk today is about every country, every company, every firm. It's applied to all of you. So, it's nothing to do with

the

culture of your country. We talk about the culture of the firm.

So,

awesome. So, I think that was insightful to see a little bit where you're taking us. And I want to go to the next question for you. So, to start our conversation, to go to the meat, as we say. My first question, David, is what is your understanding about corporate culture? Because I think everywhere you go, you see these words used loosely by everyone, in articles, all kinds of consultants. But the subject is a common meaning. I don't think so. What do you

think? I

think one of the most overused words and misunderstood words is culture.

One

thing I wish that people would do when they make presentations or write articles or books is actually

use

the word with the understanding that

two

people don't agree with it.

And

they don't necessarily define it the right way.

And

therefore, define it. To me, culture, some people would say, and it's a cute expression, but it captures it. It's what

gets

done and how people behave when nobody's looking.

But

culture is really rooted in the values of the organization because culture is reflected in the norms of behavior

and

the foundation for the norms of behavior, the values of the organization.

The

problem is, is organizations talk about values,

but

then they don't live them and they create cynical employees.

So,

I'd say the foundation for culture is, definition of culture to me, are the, what are the behaviors

that

reflect the true meaning of the values of the organization? So, people are,

have

a common understanding and a common belief system.

So,

therefore, decisions are predictable how they be made.

It's

predictable how you treat people, how you treat clients.

You

know,

cultures and norms of behavior,

and

they're learned through trial and error.

Awesome.

And I think it reminded me of

the

beginning of the discussion, because I always complained that I didn't feel fit in a lot of my work. And then I understood that

a

lot of them had no culture and they were never good attached.

And talk

about being cynical. I mean, I was, didn't know who to talk to and I didn't know

what

to complain about. But now I get,

what

was the problem? I

mean,

in all these organizations I work and I hope it will not happen in the future.

But there's always

a culture there, because there's always, there's always a way decisions are made.

There's

always a way

leaders

treat, reward, recognize people.

So, that's

what I call, what actually happens in the organization

is

not necessarily what you're taught at onboarding or orientation.

So, at

orientation you're taught the theory,

but

when you start working you're taught the reality. And that reality is the hidden curriculum of the organization. Schools have hidden curriculum.

Like,

you learn from observing and experience what are,

what

is happening in an organization by observation and therefore you do that.

I

work with a number of police services and, and the officers that do the training and cadets are always upset

by,

by the mentor officer who takes them for the first time out. And the first thing they say is, I'm going to unteach you everything you learned

and

I'll teach you the right way of doing it.

Well,

it's not as blatant

in

most organizations,

but

like in schools,

it's

identified very quickly.

And

that goes back to the question, how are people going to learn that

when

everybody's working from home

or

working from anywhere? And so, some organizations have actually responded to that by saying for the first two weeks or four weeks, depending on the organization,

a

new employee has to come to the office. And after that, they can work remotely.

So,

it is an important issue, culture, because it is there, whether you like it or not.

Thanks,

David. And by the way, those of you joining us,

I

see that Sharon and Cabana and Neil, a lot of people joining us. So, those of

you

who

do

not know, I'm here with David Cohen,

he's

one of the top culture experts in the world.

And

I'm happy to discuss more in details for you. So, ask your question

in

the chat box, if

you

have it, David, and I skip my own question. If you have better questions than mine, I promise you, just ask it. He's here for that. So, just type in the chat box any question you have.

And

I'll continue with my question to you, David, because

you

wrote a lot about it. And I know you mentioned a lot of your books, but

help

us out. What is more important? Because I see a lot of people dealing with culture or strategy.

So,

attributed to

Dr. Professor

Drucker, Peter Drucker, is

culture

and strategy for breakfast. So, he would say he doesn't remember saying that. And he lived a long time. But culture

is

the foundation for right or wrong. Strategy is the execution of the business plan.

You

can have a great

strategy

plan.

And

if people aren't on board or they're being asked to violate the values, they'll kill that strategy in a nanosecond.

So,

without having a strong culture first, yeah, I think that it does eat

culture

eats. Culture is not eating strategy. Culture is the strategy.

So,

if you base everything, the way I look at it, the way I tell my clients is,

you

have a set of values with corresponding behaviors that define success.

You

have a vision of where your organization is going, that north star, that future state.

The

strategy is the third thing to produce, not the first.

The

third thing to produce, and the way to measure, is the strategy correct?

Will

it cause our employees to violate the values? If yes, redo the strategy.

Will

it move us towards the north star?

If

no, then redo the strategy.

Too

many organizations begin with strategy,

and

then they readjust their values,

or

they readjust their vision to meet the strategy.

And

all that does is confuse people, because when was it, ask yourself, when was the last time

that

you,

when

was the last time you changed your values?

It

took you a long time to know what your values are. Values don't change. They evolve very slowly, if at all, once we hit adulthood.

So,

if I'm in a firm where I align with the values,

I

believe in those values, I live those values, get rewarded, recognized for those values,

having

somebody come in and say, we have a new set of values is going to confuse me, and I'm going to leave the organization.

David,

I just want to talk directly to one of the managing part of law firm that I talked last week. He told me that, you know, we work on the strategy, and maybe later on this year, we'll talk about culture. So, you heard what David said, culture is tragedy.

And

you better think about it already when you develop your strategy, not later, not before. Doing the strategy is the important part. Without it, I don't know how much your strategy is worth, and how much will you attract the best people to your practice, to your firm?

So, think

of it this way,

the

values and vision of the organization are the curbstone on a highway. You've got two or four lanes you can operate in,

which

means you've got some flexibility with the behaviors, etc.

But

if your strategy doesn't fit within those four lanes, it's the wrong strategy.

So,

if you don't define your values, the meaning of the values, and your vision beforehand,

it's

going to be like herding cats, which many law firms are. But that's another story.

Thanks

for that, David. And those who are joining us now, again, I'm with David Cohen, Dr. David Cohen, one of the top experts on COVID culture. And we're speaking about actually legal culture. And I say hi to all of you there. Just let us know when you're joining, where you're from. And if you have questions to David,

please

put it in the chat, because I want David to answer your question as well. So, and I'm happy, by the way, I'm thanking each of you that are joining us for this special LinkedIn Live. So, continue with our question to you, David, and what I see you talked about. And before, maybe I should mention before that you wrote a book, The Inside the Box, and others. So, if people want to learn more, and these are the books available, we'll put it in the chat, that people can see it as well. And, of course, if you want, there's a new answer already in the chat,

where

can you hear about, learn from David. So, here's his website.

You

can find more information from where David, and connect with him

on

his website as well, at sagltd.com. Sagltd is on the screen. So, with that, let me go to the next question for you, David. And, actually, about

more, let

me frame it differently, but is that true that culture, it's right for breakfast, you already answered,

but

we have a lot of attention on culture.

So,

why

is

it hiring for fit to culture considered negative?

That's

only considered negative because of a couple of articles that have appeared in the Harvard Business Review by some leading firms, HCHROs.

Hiring,

their understanding of culture, or the hiring problem,

and

they're right, it is a problem, is managers hire in their own image.

And,

if their image doesn't match the

image

of the organization,

then

they hire for the wrong culture.

So,

many hiring managers

want

somebody that looks like me, walks like me, went to the same school as I, drive the same car I do, live approximately in the same neighborhood, etc., etc. So, I can recreate and validate myself.

But,

when you talk about culture and values, you have people from all over the world that have similar behaviors, regardless of the religion, regardless of where they went to school.

But,

they've come to adulthood and believe and act in a certain way.

So,

hiring for values

takes

away the prejudice of hiring in one's own image.

I

think that it gets a bad rap and people say, don't hire for fit to culture because they have a wrong definition of culture. Culture, to them, is the imprint of the people that are doing the hiring.

The

mantra should be, don't hire in your own image. Hire for fit to values.

And,

if the person doesn't already live the values,

at

least to some degree,

I

don't care their educational background, how successful they've been,

don't

hire them because they will be, they'll be a thorn in your side once you hire them.

And,

I love that you made a differentiation between value and belief and it's not the same, of course, and it's based on the value. But, you know, David, I'll be honest with you because I see a lot of people, call them the consultant in the market, that, you know, they're going to company, they're going to a specific, even firm, professional firm, and say, you know what, let me help you change the culture.

I

want to know from you because you have experts so many years, decades of expertise, and you help companies.

Is

that true? Is that possible? Or, and how would you, specifically for a professional firm, what are you thinking about?

Well,

let me first define what a value is from my point of view. A value is a strongly held belief,

so

it's beyond the belief,

that's

resisted to change,

and

is universally applied.

So,

if a value

is

a strongly held belief, emotionally charged, and there's emotion to values,

because

when

people

violate your values,

you

get really upset.

You

understand that. So,

as

a result of that, what you need to do is you need to understand

that

values

are

the things that differentiate your meaningful life from other people's.

And

if people,

in

having their values, don't

change

them,

then

organizations who are made up of people

are

going to resist changing their values.

So,

organizations cannot change culture.

They

can evolve a culture very slowly.

And

so,

the

research is clear,

and

whether it's from MIT,

or

from Harvard, or from any other research that I've seen, anywhere between 85% to 90%

of

culture change initiatives fail within 18 months.

So,

if that is a long record,

I

would suggest work on defining what,

I

always call, finding out what your culture is,

a

back-to-the-future exercise,

your

company was great once, your law firm was once

great,

it felt good, people wanted to join it,

what

were the values then? Recreate those. So, go back to your future.

Make

your future what your successful past was.

Thanks,

David, for that. And I think it's also showing, indeed, that changing culture is not the right

phrase

to use. Definitely, whether a consultant come to you as a lawyer, accountant, wherever you are, has to change your culture. Maybe you should doubt what they're really offering you, and it's possible to be done, because otherwise you waste your money on

enough

things. Too many professional firms, however, do hire people because of their experience and their success and their client base.

And

then they bring them in, and then they find out there's, while they're a rainmaker,

nobody

really wants to talk to them or work with

them. We'll

work with your client as long as you're not involved. So,

is

it really worth it? Because how many employees

did

you cause stress, aggravation, low productivity, or leave?

And

the cost of hiring a good lawyer at a senior level

to

replace them, I would say, is probably anywhere from

eight

to ten times their compensation.

So,

is having that person versus

having

all those other people leave, it's still costing you money that they leave. So, yeah, they're bringing in more money, but they're costing you more money on the downside with everybody's leaving, stress leave, medical leave, and everything else. So, it's kind of like you've got to consider what's really going on.

Thank

you, David, and I want to thank all of you there that your comments, I could see them, and indeed, Sharon said, yes, don't reward toxic terrain maker. And I think you're right, absolutely, Sharon, and that's the experience of a lot of us. And I see that, Dale, you're sharing a lot of interesting thoughts from your practice, from your knowledge. Thank you for that.

And,

Hank, with your things on comparing what, indeed, Peter Drucker said and what,

indeed,

what David said today, as culture does not eat strategy for breakfast. Absolutely.

So,

keep coming with your comments, and if you have any questions, because we're almost at the end of our conversation, as you can see, I'm waiting for your questions. So, if you have a question about culture in your practice, your firm, don't be shy to ask. Asking will teach all of us, including David and myself. So, while waiting for your question, let me ask you the next question, David, and to remind everybody else, you know, we saw, recently, part of us read a McKinsey article,

and

they noted that the board of directors should be involved

in

the articulation of the culture and, you know, they should be the guardians of the corporate culture.

And

I think we talked at the beginning when I asked 10 in 1, is that true? Do you agree with that? What is your intake on that?

Well,

there's a great book put out by a lawyer.

I'm

pretty sure the name of the book is The Shareholder Myth,

where

she details, based on U.S. law, and she's just from U.S.,

that

the board of directors really doesn't have

that

much control

over

the executive team and the company and what they do.

A

great example of that

is Charles

Schultz. When he was at Starbucks,

his fundamental value, his

guiding light

in

life,

was

human dignity.

And

he embedded that in the organization.

Now,

he could do that because he was there when it was beginning to expand and grow, and he was a CEO at the time. So when you're starting a new company, that CEO does have that opportunity to create the culture. It ain't going to change.

Because

after he left,

and

there was an incident in Philadelphia, where two people of color were kicked out and police came. Starbucks' response was,

the

CEO got an airplane, flew to Philadelphia, and apologized to these two guys.

And

then they set up a sensitivity training for diversity course, where they closed all of the stores and lost $600 million that day.

So, the

values were more important. That's not a clear message

to

their employees. We'd rather treat you right and treat our customers right

than

to make some extra money.

Now,

that's a strong message for employees. And

when

Schultz was questioned at a board meeting, at a shareholder meeting, about giving same-sex benefits,

his

response, he said to the person, respectfully speaking, if you can get better than a 35% return on your investment

in

this past year, please take your money and go somewhere else.

I'm

not going to change it just because you think I should be a profit machine. I should be a people machine first. So, the board comes from outside organizations. They have different experiences. Those organizations have different cultures.

They

don't know what the front line fields does and how they behave.

So,

the board getting involved

in

leadership, defining it,

is

nothing but, I believe, a quagmire that is going to cause a lot of organizations to have a lot of questioning what's going on. Now, I've worked with

boards after

the values were defined

and

took them through an explanation of why the values were the way they were

and

what the board needed to do

to

respond

in

a way that the employees would appreciate it.

So,

the board works within the culture of the organization. It's not easy because some try to influence it that says, no, no, no, we should try to do this. And I said, here's the critical incident that validates

that

this is really a value in this organization.

And

it ain't going to change.

Thanks,

David, for that. And I see the people asking questions. So, let me bring one question. I see coming from Hank. And he said, you know, and I read it for you, our company is still very young, but we are growing. What steps should we take

to

make sure we get the culture right?

Well,

first step, Hank, is,

as

I said, know your values. Define your values. Define the belief system that you will not violate. Define the behaviors. How do they look at? Look at incidents in your life

and

the life of other leaders in the organization of what happened when that value was violated.

And,

yeah, respect, trust, love, peace, and all that are sort of given.

Go

beyond that. Find the real values that differentiate you as an organization.

And

understand the behaviors that define them. Because a value without,

a

lot of organizations put values up there,

and

then they find some

Hallmark

card

flowery

definition alongside it.

So,

employees don't know what it really means.

So,

they can interpret it any way they want. To avoid that, you've got to put down four or five specific behaviors.

If

you act this way,

you

will truly be living the values. So, start early. Celebrate it. And I can tell you with the company I did in Corpus Christi, Texas that did that,

they

hired 60 employees based on the values.

They

hired people that the CEO said he would have never hired me for.

And

they lost nobody in the first year.

They

lost two people.

Well, they lost two

people. One was

a

bad performer, and the other

was

because of a family situation.

And, you

know, that

zero

turnover rate, basically,

that's

powerful. So, it's led to great success also.

So,

hire for fit to values, but you've got to know what your values are first. And you've got to know what the behaviors that define the values are.

So,

I would, Hank, that's my recommendation to you.

And

to remind me of the expression, David,

I

said years ago, I'm referring to something else. But, you know, somebody asked me a question, and it's like, the culture, I feel like, the value is like a magnet of the practice.

So,

you don't ask the magnet, where are the pieces of the metal?

Because

they will be attracted to it, and the rest will go away from it. If you're wood or

different

sort of material, you're not going to be attracted to this magnet.

Now, and look at Home Depot, 350,000 employees,

and

the three founders had a very clear set. They don't believe, you know, they're diametrically opposed politically, two of them,

like night

and day, opposite side of the spectrum.

But

they said,

when

we treat our employees,

so

when they left, and they had a CEO didn't treat them that way, employees said, we don't bleed orange anymore.

And

when the new CEO came in and, you know,

re

-celebrated those values,

then

the organization started bleeding orange, and profitability started to go through the roof again. So, it's no small task,

but

it's got to be taken a lot more seriously than people are. The one thing I wanted to get back to, which I think is really important, you asked the question, is,

what

makes employee happiness? So, the question is, is a, in a legal firm, is a lawyer happy

because

they're happy,

or

are they happy

because

they

perceive

that they are successful?

The

answer is interesting.

There's

an expression, there's an understanding,

and

this is an ancient understanding. who is a rich man,

a

person

who

is happy with their portion. Because

if

I am defining my success externally,

I've

got this new client that we've all been pursuing, I'm feeling really good. Eventually,

that's

going to wear off, and everybody expects you to go get another client.

So,

now I'm miserable again until I get another client.

So,

if I define happiness

based

on my success, my promotion,

because

once you're promoted to,

you

know,

an

associate lawyer, then you want to become a partner, then you want to become a senior partner, and then you want to become, you know, a director in the firm. So, you're

pursuing

this golden ring

that doesn't

define your success,

and

you've

got

to remember this. You're 90 years old, and you pass away.

Who's

going to be at your funeral?

Is

it going to be those people that you helped along the way, or that you beat up along the way,

who

probably,

maybe

not forgot about you,

but

you've been gone from that firm for 20 years?

Things

have changed, people have moved on,

your

family's the only one that's going to be there, hopefully.

And

so, you've got to really focus on it.

Be

happy in your portion of life,

understand

who you are,

and

stop defining

success.

So, who is happy?

A

lawyer who is happy to begin with,

will,

in fact, achieve all those things.

A

lawyer who is always pursuing happiness

based

on their success

will

always be miserable,

though

they appear happy.

They're

always

ready

to get to the net. I remember once at a brokerage firm,

the

CEO said to me, come with me, and I said, where are

we

going?

He

says, you'll see. And he had this very successful, very successful young broker

who had

two houses, a cottage up north, everything. Everything was going great for him, young guy.

And

he dropped off a Rolls-Royce brochure on his desk.

He

says,

I

just got to keep him motivated. My comment was, is that what motivated him or something else motivated him?

You

don't even know.

And

most executives don't know what really motivates their employees. Happiness has to come from

a

contentment with yourself, not external factors.

Lesson for life.

And

I see another comment here or observation by actually a smart, anonymic LinkedIn user.

So

they said,

the

partner structure of a law firm and other professional firms or services makes it even more difficult to change the culture as I see it.

They

are owned by senior partners, try to change the culture and recruit from the bottom where you focus on delivery.

What

is your intake on that, David? Do you agree or you have other thoughts about

that? Yeah,

I worked. I won't mention the firm, but in my past life, I did work.

When

I left education and got into consulting,

I

worked at a major international consulting firm.

And

you're right. You know, the

many

clients, the receptions, we talk to them, they know everything.

So

they always laugh. So-and-so consulting firms in,

all

the big guys came in to sell the contract. And now we've got all these people that are wet behind the ears, who just graduated last week, to do the work. So unless you hire for fit to values,

you

can't trust the people who are doing the work.

So

it's time that,

you

know,

we

pursue the right things,

we

reward the right things.

I

think a large, because

large

professional service organizations are a jigsaw puzzle

of

different pieces from different backgrounds

that

never really talk about culture, except in theory.

And

they allow people to get away with the wrong things,

that it's

a real issue. And I work with two major law firms here in Toronto.

And I,

you know, I was not astounded,

but

fifth-year associates,

if first

-year associates complain the way they're treated by people,

the

second-year associates, the fifth-year associates, I observed,

were

treating the first-year associates for all the things that when they were first-year associates, they were complaining about. So it's a rite of passage. That's ridiculous. You've got to break that mentality that it's a rite of passage.

Thank

you for that, David. And I know we're almost at the end of our conversation. I see a lot of people still joining. So those of

you

who

are

joining, we're almost at the end. Did you know I'm with every doctor, David Cohen, one of the top experts of the corporate culture? I mean, if you want to know more about David, connect with David, learn from his website again, that you were looking for, sagltd.com. That is a consultancy firm, and I promise you, you'll enjoy the conversation and all the brilliant ideas

and

a lot of years of experience David has to share.

So

you're very welcome. So I want to summarize this great session, David, with a quote that I know you don't like the person, but I quote again because I found it in time from Jack Walsh, who said actually that no company, small or large, can win over the long run without energized employees who believe in the mission and understand. how to achieve it.

And

I think in a lot of the firms I know, they miss it.

They

miss that possibility. A lot of the employees do not know why they're doing what they're doing.

They're

working hard till the moment they break and they leave. And it's about time law firms and specifically a professional firm generally would definitely look into the subject of strategy, culture, values to insert. So now, my friends, it's time to take action, implement what you learned from this session with David. I hope it was good. I was actually bringing David for you to ask the question, and that's what I want you to do and all the other things. So just come, ask the question. That's the only way you could learn. No question is a stupid question. I mean, we all learn it by asking this question. So again, those of

you

who

are

here, I'm here with David Cohen. And as I said, he's the top talk leaders on corporate culture and behavior competencies, author, speaker. And I enjoyed very much talking with you, David. So thank you

very much. Thank you very much

for inviting me.

The time passed very

fast, I know.

Yes.

So,

and David and myself, I want to thank each one of you that join us. Please join us next Tuesday at 6 p.m. Central European Time, 12 p.m. Eastern Time, or 9 a.m. for Pacific Time,

because

every week it's time

to

switch it on.

So

thanks, everybody. Thanks, David. Thank you. And I'll say goodbye for now and

play

the outro. Thank you. Thank

you.